V cool.
& yes, encore, please.
Two capacious and gracious minds exploring differences and surprises. It sure can’t hurt, and is one of the best things bhtv can do for all of us.

Acting up? No problem with that as long as we're ready to live with the consequences. I noted that this diavlog was recorded Sept 19th. Ta-Nehisi is bright, articulate and thoughtful. Generalizing about people on the basis of race or gender is a mistake. Ferraro may well be a racist bigot. I expect she's not. I do know that there are plenty of white and black folks who also happen to be young, old, educated, poor, rich, on the coast, in the interior who are excited that a black person may be elected President of the United States. I know this, in part, because John, Glenn and Ta-Nehisi tell me they're excited. White folks are often more circumspect. The caucus system worked to the Chosen One's advantage. It's also true that Mark Penn appears to have screwed-up big time. It's also true that the Chosen one has a superb organization and messaging system. And it's also true that the big increase in his support in the run-up to Super-Tuesday occurred with non-stop accusations of racism being leveled at the Clinton camp. I've no idea what will happen over the next few weeks much less the next few months. My

I'm going to side with John on this one.
A few points: Black people are out of touch with what white people think about them. Partially this is because the average white person is not comfortable talking about race; we saw this in the reaction to Obama winning Iowa. This seemed to surprise the entire black community. It did not surprise me; it did not surprise a lot of white people. Identity plays a huge part in American politics and Obama being given the speech at DNC 2004 had everything to do with his skin color. It isn't as if there was even a 5% chance he would have spoken in that spot if he was white; there was a zero percent chance. This is what jump-started his political career. I recall several years ago, seeing Harold Ford Jr go on the Daily Show, and Jon Stewart talking about him semi-seriously as a future President. I saw the same thing happen a few years ago with Obama. AS far as I can tell Obama is filling a niche, a niche created by a subconscious desire by a certain section of the white populace to see

Fantastic. I was actually moved by this discussion, which for all Bloggingheads' wonderful qualities, generally isn't something experienced watching a diavlog. The discussion of hip-hop and art got to the heart of the matter and the personal expression/societal, moral, etc. aspects of art and hip-hop specifically, and the complete answer was contained in a combination of the two sides, which is always my favorite type of discussion. Ta-Nehisi's right in talking about art as expressing how we feel, and that hip-hop is more complex than simply a middle finger, and it shouldn't be held to a higher standard than middle finger punk, which certainly a lot of is far less complex, or even at all decent musically, than a lot of hip-hop is; and John's right that the middle finger expressed in rap is dangerous if people stop at that, or if the expression of anger makes people not want to try to improve their situation. This is a central paradox in a lot of art, as Ta-Nehisi says, about Kurt Cobain as much as hip-hop. A lot of it has to do with being young, and a lot of it has to do with

If the American Civil War promised rights and opportunities for the enslaved, it caused anxiety for the free persons of color. Under the French and Spanish, Louisiana was a three-tiered society, similar to that of Brazil, Cuba, Haiti, Mexico, and other French and Spanish colonies. This three-tiered society allowed for the emergence of a wealthy and educated group of mixed and black Creoles. Their identity as free people of color, or Gens de couleur libres or personne de couleur libre was one they had worked diligently towards and guarded with an iron fist. By law they enjoyed most of the same rights and privileges as whites. They could and often did challenge the law in court of law and won cases against whites (Hirsch; Brasseaux; Mills; Kein etc.). As they knew that the United States did not legally recognize a three-tiered society, they were threatened by the American Civil War. The potential of the end of slavery posed a considerable threat to the identity and position of the free people of color. Following the Union victory in the Civil War, the Louisiana three-tiered society was dismantled(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Creole_people). this aspect of the louisiana territories

Absolutely fantastic. This is an excellent counterpoint (from a generational standpoint) to John's diavlogs with Glenn. More please.

What a priviledge to be privy to such a conversation as this. And thank God and the internet for the blogging-heads format!

Agree with all the comments above praising the discussion; both Ta-Nehisi and John were excellent. Just wanted to say that, growing up as a white kid in Iowa and speaking only from personal experience, I know what John means when he says that it gives people a good feeling to support Obama. In high school, my friends and I would periodically debate whether or not Iowans were racist--whether we ourselves were racist. Some said yes, some no. I came to believe that the right answer was that Iowa was basically too white to know. There simply aren't enough people of color for you to know how you'll react towards people of different races in general. Now I certainly wanted to not feel like a racist, but I worried that I was one. When I moved away for college to a much more racially diverse part of the country, I wondered what I would discover about myself. After some months of college, I finally felt that I was able to say about myself that, to my great relief, I wasn't racist, at least not unusually so. Unlike John, I wasn't able to foresee that Obama would win Iowa, but I did know it was possible. In part because, as

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/146...5:30&out=15:37

Really good post. Thanks.

Hip Hop recommendations
Living Legends, Little Brother, MURS

Chris Rock said it best . . . " George Bush fucked up so bad that he made it hard for a white guy to run for President "

Quoting benjy: Of course this is hard to do when one community has been oppressing and discriminating against a minority and perpetrated terrible atrocities and injustices against it. There's no doubt about that as a fact of course, and whites should accept it and feel more contrition. But should's I think the operative word--a lot of things should be, but in reality probably won't reach the level that they should, even as they hopefully move incrementally in that direction. The fact of the matter seems to me that, as much as white people should care more about their historical and current culpability in racism, as John says, they don't, and they probably won't in the future think that much more about it.

interesting post, but I definitely disagree with the quote above. For me to feel "more contrition" for things that happened in the past and have no real connection to me would require that I have a highly developed race consciousness of "whiteness" that would be the obvious beginnings of racism. It is great that white people that have never been racist don't feel more contrition - it is a sign

Great diavlog. True mensches, both of them.

Quoting cantbelieveim50: Thank you so much, BHTV, for giving us an interesting debate after last night's boring disappointment of Joe and Sarah.

Ta-Nehisi and John, great job: I've watched every BHTV for over 2 years now and this is my first comment. You managed to disagree strongly with each other over while still listening to each other respectfully.

I was not dissapointed with the Joe and Sarah show, but that probably only means my expectations were met. You're just not going to get a reasonable, nuanced, discussion in pursuit of the truth in that setting. That's not what televised political debates are all about. Instead, you're going to get and endless repetition of "Maverick" and "Change" and "Bush, Bush, Bush, ....": all words that have tested well with focus groups I'm sure. I could not agree with you more about this BHTV post by Ta-Nehisi and John. What a wonderful world it is that I live in when I can come home on a Friday evening, after a long day at work, flip on my PC and listen in on such a fascinating dialog between two really smart guys who actually listen to each other. And who actually seem to want to understand what the

Quoting popcorn_karate: . It is great that white people that have never been racist don't feel more contrition - it is a sign that we are not having our emotions driven by race-consciousness.

If you were to make white people feel more contrition - how often would that then turn into resentment and then into actual racism?

Your point becomes especially cogent if Obama is elected. Should he fall short, the process begins again. I share John's oft-stated sentiment that the cultural shift will begin with the reality of the imagery of the Obama's rippling beyond the White House and into the media-scape and unconscious of the electorate and world beyond.

One thing that I wish these guys would have brought up is the possibility that music (all art actually) is a reflection of where people are at rather than directing where they are headed. The striking thing about rap/hip-hop was that it was the first musical outlet (that i'm aware of) where African Americans actually spoke their minds about the truths of the ghetto and the racism and oppression they have endured. Blues, mowtown, jazz, 70's disco, Stevie Wonder etc., none of them showed flat-out rage. None of them were "pugnacious." The great thing about early (gangsta) rap was that not only did it shine a light into the dreadful world of the black inner city, but it was the first time that Blacks were able to raise their fists in an artistic way that was accepted and bought into (literally through cd sales) by much of the public. While I agree that too much obsession on the negatives is not the most constructive outlook to hold, generally, I think the message to black children that it was okay to speak up and voice their criticisms is a valuable thing. Will

Quoting popeyethesailorman: I was not dissapointed with the Joe and Sarah show, but that probably only means my expectations were met. You're just not going to get a reasonable, nuanced, discussion in pursuit of the truth in that setting. That's not what televised political debates are all about. Instead, you're going to get and endless repetition of "Maverick" and "Change" and "Bush, Bush, Bush, ....": all words that have tested well with focus groups I'm sure.

Totally agree, and I will shamelessly use your post as a jumping off point to rant that if she calls me "Joe 6 pack", or my working mother wife a "soccer mom" one more time, when she made over 200k last year..... (expletive avoided). I am thinking that more than anything, this is the real nail in her coffin, driven by her own blind condescension, and by her own hand.
Oh wait, was she talking about my abs?

Quoting popeyethesailorman: I could not agree with you more about this BHTV post by Ta-Nehisi and John. What a wonderful world it is that I live in when I can come home on a Friday evening, after a long day at work, flip on my PC and listen in on such a fascinating dialog between two really smart

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: One thing that I wish these guys would have brought up is the possibility that music (all art actually) is a reflection of where people are at rather than directing where they are headed. The striking thing about rap/hip-hop was that it was the first musical outlet (that i'm aware of) where African Americans actually spoke their minds about the truths of the ghetto and the racism and oppression they have endured. Blues, mowtown, jazz, 70's disco, Stevie Wonder etc., none of them showed flat-out rage. None of them were "pugnacious."

I don't know much about this, but, what about Bob Marley and other Reggae? Not American, but popular, and a very effective delivery on racism and oppression...

Right on, I was also 14 when "It Takes a Nation of Millions" came out. I feel I am a person obsessed with all manner of pop music, and I'm sitting here trying to think of any general body of music that shares a time period and is beloved by young people that cannot be labeled as pugnacious. They all have their different flavors of pugnacity--metal, punk, hip-hop, Bob Dylan, Belle and Sebastian, Miles Davis, Ani Defranco--each one is for a group of kids, in a time, and each one carries at least a partial message that whoever is in charge doesn't understand us. Maybe the middle finger is straight up, maybe it's behind the back, maybe it's given simultaneously to the world and the mirror. I don't see why hip-hop would be qualitatively different. And there's plenty of hip-hop that's about getting stoned and watching cartoons, so I think Ta-Nehisi's argument re: Kurt Cobain, etc is correct. I get the impression Ta-Nehisi and John are not really talking about the same thing. I haven't read John's book, but I think his arrow is pointed at intellectuals who treat hip-hop like a unique artform. I agree with him about this, and will add that conducting academic

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: My guess is that, again, art is more reflective rather than directive.

If listening to Public Enemy causes a person (of any color) to open a book or read a blog or watch BHTV and become better informed, then that is just as good as being mobilized by Crime & Punishment.

Exactly. Why do the reflective aspects of hip-hop have to answer to greater accountability? For example, Public Enemy's Fight the Power impressed me in various ways. As a powerful backdrop for the opening credits of Spike lee's Do the Right Thing or as an underscore to Chuck D's fight against the recording industry's control of the artists product.
It seems a step too far for the artist to be held responsible for the effect on the audience. Regarding McWhorter's critique that its proponents claim that it is revolutionary while actually powerless in his estimation,
why not let it stand as a testament, not a prescription?

Quoting osmium: Indulgently, for a moment--I don't know what it's like to grow up black, in the 80s, in a city. But I do know what it's like to grow up alienated, in a small town, in the 80s. The first thing I got right when I needed it was Frank Zappa, and I even got to see him on TV getting grilled by Al Gore for having his middle finger stuck too high in the air. You take these things with you, because I'll always think Al Gore is a jerk, just for that. And there wasn't anything wrong with Frank. He was important. However, I agree, a department of Frank Zappa studies would be so totally pointless.

Zappa as a role model.
I beg to differ with your last sentence.

Quoting graz: I beg to differ with your last sentence.

Oh man, Frank is way too cool for a department.

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: The striking thing about rap/hip-hop was that it was the first musical outlet (that i'm aware of) where African Americans actually spoke their minds about the truths of the ghetto and the racism and oppression they have endured. Blues, mowtown, jazz, 70's disco, Stevie Wonder etc., none of them showed flat-out rage. None of them were "pugnacious."

I'm trying to think of a good indicator of "pugnacious," but I admit I can't decide if pugnacity has to be aggressive or specifically violently aggressive. I think Curtis Mayfield had a good take on the black ghetto in the 1970s. He might have been angry, but maybe he was too civilized about it to out-do NWA. (But you know, time blunts pugnacity, because NWA doesn't sound quite as dangerous there as it did when I was a kid. Now it's like, aw it's NWA, them were the days.)

It's a shame that neither addressed gender issues in hip hop. My main gripe with hip hop is that so much of it is filled with misogynistic lyrics. In my opinion, hip hop would be superb if Outkast was the representative of hip hop rather than an outlier. Unfortunately, too much of hip hop glorifies pimping, bling, bitches and hos. I really don't mind the materialism and hyper-sexual aspect of hip hop (I love fashion, which is quite similar), but I don't see why there needs to be so much misogyny and homophobia in hip hop lyrics. As a female, I don't find it uplifting to hear men calling women "bitches & hos." Perhaps early hip hop was different (both guys are 30+ so they have a different image of hip hop), but contemporary hip hop has too much misogyny and homophobia for my taste. I dance to hip hop, but I prefer house/techno/trance -- no need for lyrics. McWhorter discounts 50 cent, yet 50 cent is far more representative of contemporary hip hop. I would love to hear two female African Americans discuss how the hyper-masculine culture in hip hop influences the black community, especially women and gay males. As for those

I'll second, no, third, no, ... seventeenth the praise for this diavlog. Do we really have to wait a whole month to hear this pair again? I am not a fan of hip-hop in general, but I found the discussion worked perfectly for me if I just tho