Armando please focus. The problem is that way, way, way too many homeowners that are getting foreclosed never intended on paying off their loans. Just go ask them a simple question: describe you plan to meet your contracted debt repayment obligations. You will get a lot of nervous giggles and shifting feet, but you won't hear very many coherent answers. And the problem has expanded to where you have many mortgage holders who can make their payments and are now current aredeciding to walkaway from the debt. It is not irrational in places that prices are down 30% or more and the borrower's equity was next to nothing. Not irrational, but immoral. Armando, I'll sign up to help homeowners who had a sudden illness, or some other truly unforeseeable setback. The problem is that that population is too small alter the credit situation in aggregate. Drive around Southern California and ask foreclosed homeowners and their plans were depressingly similar: the teaser loan period will coincide with 20% value appreciation and then I will either re-finance or sell. Stripped of sentiment, this was speculation, just as much as any home flipper that ever installed

Quoting Gravy: Armando please focus. The problem is that way, way, way too many homeowners that are getting foreclosed never intended on paying off their loans. Just go ask them a simple question: describe you plan to meet your contracted debt repayment obligations. You will get a lot of nervous giggles and shifting feet, but you won't hear very many coherent answers. And the problem has expanded to where you have many mortgage holders who can make their payments and are now current aredeciding to walkaway from the debt. It is not irrational in places that prices are down 30% or more and the borrower's equity was next to nothing. Not irrational, but immoral. Armando, I'll sign up to help homeowners who had a sudden illness, or some other truly unforeseeable setback. The problem is that that population is too small alter the credit situation in aggregate. Drive around Southern California and ask foreclosed homeowners and their plans were depressingly similar: the teaser loan period will coincide with 20% value appreciation and then I will either re-finance or sell. Stripped of sentiment, this was speculation, just as much as any home flipper that ever installed

Quoting AemJeff: The idea that consumers are the primary culprits is pernicious nonsense.

I agree with your post in assigning primary responsibility to the lenders and intermediaries who flagrantly deceived their customers. Whatever modest regulations were in place were ignored by these crooks. However, there is a number, most likely very small, of people in the higher income bracket that used the opportunity of ARM to speculate on profiting with rapidly increasing home values. I live in an area where people have done that and bragged about it. But, again, this is most likely a small number of borrowers in relationship to the total, with relatively large loan dollar amount. This kind of individual speculation is impossible to prevent while the irresponsible practice of the mortgage industry is preventable with tighter regulation.

As far as him saying, it cuts both ways, if Clinton and Obama were so close on ideology why fight about it.... I don't want to open up old wounds here, but for me and the Obama people I knew the reason to go Obama vs. Hillary was the Iraq War vote. I really, really, don't want to get in the weeds about what Obama would have done if had a Senate seat or whatever. I wanted to punish that vote. Of the candidates available, that left me Obama, Kucinich, and Gravel. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but I want that to be how the Clinton 2008 tombstone reads. Sort of a kill one, warn one-thousand message to every other hot shit Senator who wants to run for president and thinks the key to doing is to be a bellicose warmonger.

Quoting Ocean: I agree with your post in assigning primary responsibility to the lenders and intermediaries who flagrantly deceived their customers. Whatever modest regulations were in place were ignored by these crooks.

However, there is a number, most likely very small, of people in the higher income bracket that used the opportunity of ARM to speculate on profiting with rapidly increasing home values. I live in an area where people have done that and bragged about it. But, again, this is most likely a small number of borrowers in relationship to the total, with relatively large loan dollar amount.

This kind of individual speculation is impossible to prevent while the irresponsible practice of the mortgage industry is preventable with tighter regulation.

I agree, no question. The issue I'm trying to highlight isn't whether there exists a class of consumers who bear some responsibility for the current state of things. Of course that's so. We're discussing a huge number of people. But, assigning primary blame to consumers, because of the inevitable, nearly tautologous, fact that some of them do bear a degree of the responsibility - that is a clear distortion of reality, an inversion of the truth.

It's the lenders who have the data and experience to understand which deals are likely to be viable and which aren't. Consumers generally enter the process with disavantages as negotiators relative to the lenders - simply because most consumers have been through the process orders of magnitude less often than lenders. And as non-professionals, consumers are less likely to approach deals with a sufficient level of emotional detachment. Oh nonsense. Yes, bankers deserve blame. But I was in Phoenix during the bubble, and I know tons of people who knew very well that this was a gamble. Bankers should pay, but so should the homeowners - speculators! - who thought they could flip a home before the adjustable rates kicked in.

Quoting AemJeff: I agree, no question. The issue I'm trying to highlight isn't whether there exists a class of consumers who bear some responsibility for the current state of things. Of course that's so. We're discussing a huge number of people.

But, assigning primary blame to consumers, because of the inevitable, nearly tautologous, fact that some of them do bear a degree of the responsibility - that is a clear distortion of reality, an inversion of the truth.

Yes, I see your point and agree. I can also see by reading other posts that identifying this issue can be misleading and some may generalize too quickly. The reality is that the solution doesn't lie in blaming individuals who anecdotally may have contributed to this mess. The root of the problem still resides in a deregulated industry where there were no safeguards and deception became the rule of the game.

Quoting jstrummer: It's the lenders who have the data and experience to understand which deals are likely to be viable and which aren't. Consumers generally enter the process with disavantages as negotiators relative to the lenders - simply because most consumers have been through the process orders of magnitude less often than lenders. And as non-professionals, consumers are less likely to approach deals with a sufficient level of emotional detachment.

Oh nonsense. Yes, bankers deserve blame. But I was in Phoenix during the bubble, and I know tons of people who knew very well that this was a gamble. Bankers should pay, but so should the homeowners - speculators! - who thought they could flip a home before the adjustable rates kicked in.

See my reply to Ocean.

Quoting Ocean: Yes, I see your point and agree. I can also see by reading other posts that identifying this issue can be misleading and some may generalize too quickly. The reality is that the solution doesn't lie in blaming individuals who anecdotally may have contributed to this mess. The root of the problem still resides in a deregulated industry where there were no safeguards and deception became the rule of the game.

Yeah. Precisely.

Why is "criticizing ones own team" considered such a virtue? Andrew Sullivan even gives one of his "awards" for it. (No, even I don't know why I continue to read him.) More often than not, "criticizing ones own team" is merely a show of self aggrandizment. (Read: Lieberman, Joe.) Or, it's what spineless politicians with no real ideology do, and then cast it as a heroic act. (Read: Lieberman, Joe.)

Dear My Georgian Friends Armando (do you have a Green Card?) and Conn, I'm back from all that economic bailout business and on to more important stuff, like preventing a traitor and a coward from becoming president of the greatest country in the history of the galaxy (Georgia is in second place). HERE'S SOME STRAIGHT TALK: Joe Sixpack doesn't compute numbers bigger than the price of a dozen doughnuts, so forget about 700 million or trillion dollars or Euros or whatever. Besides, the Democrat Party has stuffed the bill full of pork and earmarks. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. The fundamentals of the economy are sound. What's not sound is our national defense. The Dems. are running a guy who's palsy-walsys with the terrorists. His wife hates America, and he's a member of the Chicago mafia. He's never served in the Armed Forces, even though Negroes have been allowed since my days at Annapolis (even though we didn't have any). B. Hussein Obama is waving the WHITE FLAG OF SURRENDER in Iraq. It's a dangerous world, my friends. I'm thinking of putting Spain on the Axis of Evil list, along with the Castro Brothers down

Quoting John M:
It's a dangerous world, my friends. I'm thinking of putting Spain on the Axis of Evil list, along with the Castro Brothers down there in Communist Venezuela.

War is peace (unless you're chicken),

Boy! You came back with a vengeance! Here are my thoughts: Be careful with Spain. Zapatero doesn't play games. And the rest of Europe is behind... Just don't piss them off. The Castro brothers are in their final act. You may consider a helping hand in their transition. What about Venezuela? Are you worried about a cozy relationship between Chavez and Putin? And last a special request, please have Lady Governor Palin do some reading before she comes out to the civilized world. It is embarrassing... Next time you threaten to disappear from BhTV I will not waste one of my tears like last time. Look at how you show your gratitude! Going against my culture! Shame on you, John M! Forget about your war/peace nonsense! It's Peace! Ocean

More honest title for this diavlog, at least based on the first half: The Obama-Haters Whinefest. I wonder how soon after the election TalkLeft and HotAir will merge? One point of delight: It was great to hear these two trying to make something out of the Gwen Ifill non-issue before the debate happened. What's your next imaginary thing to fret about, Conn and Armando? William Ayers as Secretary of State?

Can someone explain to me how an intelligent person like Conn can be a "big fan" of Sarah Palin. If your only thinking politically, she obviously had value in energizing the base, but at a moment like this, how can you only think politically? She'd be a nonentity in an administration, but what if Mccain chokes on a pretzel, or dies of whatever disease would kill a 72 year old man? Is it not obvious to everyone that Sarah Palin doesn't know anything about anything and when she does seem to, she's just reciting, badly, what she was told to say by her handlers?

Quoting bjkeefe: ... at least based on the first half ...

Second half was better, except for, as jmoe noted, that it's impossible to listen to anyone who thinks Sarah Palin is worth anything except as sop to the wingnut base of the GOP. If the best the GOP can come up with in 2012 is Romney, Jindal, and Palin, it's going to be a long and welcome Democratic hegemony.

Quoting bjkeefe: Second half was better, except for ...

... one other thing, as well. It's hilarious to listen to these two complain about the media favoring Obama, as though the media were some unified entity. To the extent that some in the media favor Obama, I'd say three things: First, some organizations or personnel are openly partisan; e.g., MSNBC. So what? They're hardly a match for Fox and AM radio. Second, this just shows rational thinking. McCain, compounded by Palin, would be a disaster for this country. Third, McCain owns a lot of the responsibility for turning off the media. He has blown all of the credibility he had as a "straight talker" who "puts country first." In between the lies the campaign puts out in ads and on the campaign trail, the refusal to deal with the press morphing into an outright war against them, and the succession of stunts McCain has pulled, is it any wonder that the media is finally starting to take an honest look at him?

I think Rich Lowry has cleared this mystery up for the rest of us.

Palin and Reagan! Ha! Here's the difference: Reagan wanted to be President! What a couple of jokers.

White male moderator is discovered to be preparing to publish book titled: "America Reborn in the Era of John McCain" on election day. The same people who accuse Geraldine Ferraro of racism raise no objections. True! Hilarious! The better angels are going to tar and feather you November 5th no matter what. They're fisting Palin at Slate right now.

While it's always good policy not too feed the kidneystones, I can't help but point out that even in the unlikely event Obama loses, Democratic gains in the House and especially the Senate (where it's possible we'll have a veto-proof majority) are damn near assured. A President McCain would effectively neutered. Keep whistling in the dark, man.

I guess I need to thank ks for the Slate link he provided. If I hadn't been tempted by his charming characterization of the article, I'd never have found this link. Yowza!

The Telegraph reports a Dem fundraiser and Dennis Kucinich supporter advertised for an adult actress to play Republican candidate Sarah Palin. Governor Palin's sin is thinking that as Governor of Alaska she actually has the same rights as male candidates. Governor Palin didn't get the memo about: no "cracks" need apply.

Larry Flynt's team had posted an anonymous advert on the website Craigslist just days after Mrs Palin took the Republican convention by storm last month. The ad read: "Looking for a Sarah Palin look-alike for an adult film to be shot in the next 10 days." The actress would be paid $3,000 (£1,700) for the part. Flynt's spokesman confirmed to the New York Daily News that the film had been shot, but he would not yet reveal the title.

File under: if doesn't help Obama get elected, it's not news, and its not offensive. When the Fourth Estate takes a hike we all suffer. Could it get much worse? You bet.

Dear My Georgian Friend Ocean, You'll be pleased to know that I am once again suspending my campaign due to the national emergency posed by the unrepentant terrorist, Bill Ayers. I challenge my communist opponent to denounce Ayers and suspend his own campaign till this Enemy of Freedom is captured and brought to justice. Here's some straight talk: I will hunt Bill Ayers to the gates of Hell! And I ask you, where is B. Hussein Obama during this time of national crisis? Yesterday, Obama may or may not have been videotaped smooching with Bill Ayers at an Elitist Sex Club in Chicago while watching movies of Reverend Wright urinating on Old Glory. As far as I know, B. Hussein is not a post-op transvestite or an Islamofascist. But Obama must come clean. It's 3 a.m. in America, Ocean. Who do you want answering the phone?

Quoting AemJeff:
The idea that consumers are the primary culprits is pernicious nonsense.

My interest is not whether consumersare the primary culprits, but whether we should dedicate tax resources to making their lives better by effectively paying a good part of their housing expenses. I'm on board for those with truly unexpected setbacks, but not for speculators. And again, stripped of sentiment, the reason foreclosures have spiked is that massive numbers of folks who speculated are being either forced to the wall or simply deciding to abandon their commitments. Sorry, but anyone who could only meet their financial obligations by a continued price escalation that absolutely no one in the world could guarantee was speculating. Speculating isn't a mortal sin, but when you need to take your lumps, you should just take them and not expect a handout.

Quoting Ocean: I agree with your post in assigning primary responsibility to the lenders and intermediaries who flagrantly deceived their customers. Whatever modest regulations were in place were ignored by these crooks.

However, there is a number, most likely very small, of people in the higher income bracket that used the opportunity of ARM to speculate on profiting with rapidly increasing home values. I live in an area where people have done that and bragged about it. But, again, this is most likely a small number of borrowers in relationship to the total, with relatively large loan dollar amount.
QUOTE]

Anyone who bought any asset with the expectation that asset value appreciation would make the transaction affordable or profitable was speculating. It would be best to lose the silly idea that some folks who just wanted to make a profit were speculating and others, who just wanted a house to live in, weren't. If both were counting on price escalation to allow them to make good their contracted debt, they both were speculating. Sure, the later sounds nobler than the former, but they are the same thing. Neither deserves much consideration from taxpayers. Like I originally mentioned, a great