I was wrong. You can skip the first 37 minutes, unless you want to hear the conservative view of the last 40 years.

Are you F ing kidding me.... We borrowed every bit of the Reagan prosperity and we now have 10+ trillion in debt and have 3 million people locked up but by god we have clean shiny safe cities....good job frum what about sustainability?

Quoting claymisher: In a recent episode Brink got perilously close to sanity. I thought he was about to endorse Obama! So this should be interesting.

clay, he actually did endorse obama.

brink is my new favorite guy for all things that make sense. i wish they'd talk about the need for a new type of social conservatism.
the religious right are the only ones advocating social conservatism. the problem with them is that their arguments are premised on the existence of jesus. so too many of the left end up dismissing social conservatism outright because their supporters seem so illogical. and yet, by dismissing social conservatism outright, we are only left with hedonism... which as brink pointed out, will not lead to prosperity. i'd like to see a new brand of nationalism and cultural identity that transcends existing ethnic and class divisions. in sum, we need a new, inclusive social conservatism to take the place of the existing waspy one. i suppose obama's life story is the best representative of that ideal.. television and music are the best markers for what we value as a society. we used to see ayn rand on television in the 1950s. people used to be famous because they were important. now our society thinks that people are important *because* they are famous. hard work is

david frum <-- do not want

Aw, I like a conservative who can just come out and say it. Stuff like, "the social safety net is bad because people need to have the fear of starvation in 'em." That beats a bunch of mumbling about the magical free market.

we now have 10+ trillion in debt and have 3 million people locked up but by god we have clean shiny safe cities...

But the best part is when I wear shorts the backs of my legs don't stick to the vinyl seats in the orange Gremlin.

I enjoyed this discussion a lot. Getting to see what people really think, no talking points, and everyone likes each other--how much better could it get? Dear David, When you went for the radio I was like no no no no nope, because radio was just fine in the 70s and completely blows now. But ok, you said iPod, iPod, ok sure. You could even put some 70s stuff on there. KC and the Sunshine Band aside...

I disagree with David Frum too strongly in temperament and basic sympathies to find his arguments convincing. But I enjoyed this conversation. I remember Frum's Bloggingheads episode with Mark Schmitt, which should have been excellent but which was a total waste of time, mainly because Frum was condescending and apparently uninterested in real dialog. (He did later post some more reasonable thoughts, though still not ones I agreed with.) I wonder what Frum would be like if he were less of (as he characterizes himself) a "party man." At any rate, he represents the sane wing of the Republican party at this point. I hope he manages to help turn his party around -- though I hope it doesn't happen for a while, because I hope the reinvigorated center-left will get a nice, long opportunity to try its hand at steering the ship of state. It's certainly possible that they (we) could screw things up (or fail to unscrew them). But if they manage not to, things might just get really good again.

Um. Wow. Behold Brink Lindsey, "sensible" conservative, labeling the Civil Rights Movement and Feminism "crazy radical excesses." http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/159...5:28&out=15:40 The kind of right-wing social history provided in this diavlog is fascinating, if a little bit scary at times.

Quoting nikkibong: Um. Wow. Behold Brink Lindsey, "sensible" conservative, labeling the Civil Rights Movement and Feminism "crazy radical excesses."

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/159...5:28&out=15:40

The kind of right-wing social history provided in this diavlog is fascinating, if a little bit scary at times.

Distorted story nonetheless...

We all bring with us our little stories. Brink and David are no exception. One can take any period in history and create as many stories as one’s own imagination desires. One just has to pick and choose what facts or quasi-facts are convenient for one's plot and voila! One becomes a novel writer or a historian. The rest of my comment, which contains the ‘Truth’ will be written in my first language. Señores, están bastante confundidos en cuanto a la historia de su propio país. El error es tan grosero, que la única solución, por el momento, es que vayan a confesarse inmediatamente, y luego, en penitencia, recen 1,500 Padre Nuestros y 1,500 Ave Marías. Noten el detalle delicado de la equivalencia numérica: se trata del principio de igualdad, del cual ustedes están bastante lejos. Pero, claro, siempre hay esperanza… Good try.

A tally sheet of the conservative Republican era: 1) Liberalizing trade: accomplished, Democrats on board more or less. 2) Unfettering markets: accomplished, Democrats on board more or less. 3) De-unionizing workforce: mostly accomplished, Democrats mostly NOT on board, and rising inequality creates conditions for this to be reversed. (Side question: if the UAW dies with GM, will this be a good or bad thing for the American union movement?) 4) Reduce entitlements/reduce size of federal government: net failure on both counts, though I guess one can count Welfare reform as a Pyrrhic victory. 5) Law and Order/guns issues: somewhat to mostly accomplished, though to my liberal eyes the rise of the illicit drug market, the gang problem and the prison industry makes the whole enterprise seem like a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Democrats on board. 6) Hawkish Foreign Policy, accomplished, though from my perspective of the 20th Century to the present the doves have never really had much of a place at the table under either party. The notion that peaceniks ended Vietnam has been wildly exaggerated. Democrats on board, but poised to jump off for a while. 7) Abortion and other "family values" issues: net failure. Democrats no longer looking to Tipper Gore for talking points. There are probably

Good to see libertarian versus conservative rather then liberal versus conservative

Quoting banco: Good to see libertarian versus conservative rather then liberal versus conservative

Hard to reach a conclusion with this kind of story...

7) Abortion and other "family values" issues: net failure. Democrats no longer looking to Tipper Gore for talking points.

There are probably other categories that I've neglected, but it appears from my list that the most unambiguous accomplishments correspond to the demands of globalism. That begs a question. Was conservative ideology or an evolving economic structure the agency of conservative success?

Would you mind rephrasing these points?

Quoting rcocean: My sincere hope is that Brink and Frum both leave** the Republican party and go to "Save" the Democrats. They're really both liberals at heart, and elitist to the core. It will be best for all concerned - especially Conservatives and Republicans who like winning. And I'm sure the Democrats will love having two more Harvard Law Grads.

What Republican Party? It no longer exists. A good name for the carcass would be The Evangelical Dixiecrats. The GOP is libeling the name of Lincoln and other great Republicans by keeping the name. Although these days, I sometimes think Lincoln should not have saved the Union. He should have let the south go - to be backward to this day, run by the Evangelical Dixiecrats. The US had to drag the south kicking and screaming out of its ignorance beginning in the 1950's. I think we would be better off without Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and the rest of the shithole that made up the Confederate States of America.

Some of the smartest people in this country have come from that shithole. There really is no reason to act like such an idiot about a certain part of the country.

Quoting avatar299: Some of the smartest people in this country have come from that shithole. There really is no reason to act like such an idiot about a certain part of the country.

i think brink spent his childhood in the south but i could be wrong.
i wouldn't write off the entire south as intellectually devoid.
just the bitter ones who cling to guns and religion. the left ends up putting the lablel of closedminded, racist, bible thumper on the entire right.
when in fact the intellectual conservatives are nothing near that.
don't forget william f. buckley called for drug legalization.

Quoting nojp: Are you F ing kidding me....

We borrowed every bit of the Reagan prosperity and we now have 10+ trillion in debt and have 3 million people locked up but by god we have clean shiny safe cities....good job frum what about sustainability?

I agree with Brink, but I respect Frum and I think that based on his statements in the diavlog that he cares about the environment and sustainability. Check out the last fifteen minutes of the diavlog, Frum was critizizing the '08 Republican Convention for having "drill, baby, drill" as a slogan. Later, he states that the Republican party needs to embrace environmentalism in order to have a shot at regaining power.

Quoting sugarkang: brink is my new favorite guy for all things that make sense.

i wish they'd talk about the need for a new type of social conservatism.
the religious right are the only ones advocating social conservatism. the problem with them is that their arguments are premised on the existence of jesus. so too many of the left end up dismissing social conservatism outright because their supporters seem so illogical. and yet, by dismissing social conservatism outright, we are only left with hedonism... which as brink pointed out, will not lead to prosperity.

i'd like to see a new brand of nationalism and cultural identity that transcends existing ethnic and class divisions. in sum, we need a new, inclusive social conservatism to take the place of the existing waspy one. i suppose obama's life story is the best representative of that ideal..

television and music are the best markers for what we value as a society. we used to see ayn rand on television in the 1950s. people used to be famous because they were important. now our society thinks that people are important *because* they are famous.

hard work is

Quoting claymisher: Aw, I like a conservative who can just come out and say it. Stuff like, "the social safety net is bad because people need to have the fear of starvation in 'em." That beats a bunch of mumbling about the magical free market.

When I meet such people I usually refer them to this passage from the book that gave birth to capitalism: "The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion."
-Adam Smith I encourage you to do the same. The ignorance or intellectual dishonesty

Quoting thprop: What Republican Party? It no longer exists. A good name for the carcass would be The Evangelical Dixiecrats. The GOP is libeling the name of Lincoln and other great Republicans by keeping the name.

Although these days, I sometimes think Lincoln should not have saved the Union. He should have let the south go - to be backward to this day, run by the Evangelical Dixiecrats. The US had to drag the south kicking and screaming out of its ignorance beginning in the 1950's. I think we would be better off without Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia and the rest of the shithole that made up the Confederate States of America.

Philisophically I am a libertarian, but until technology makes libertarianism feasible I am a center-left democrat, so I share your hope that this was a realigning election. But, Nate Silver at 538 recently wrote this: "Was 2008 A Realigning Election? Ask Me In Eight Years.
This whole debate about whether 2008 was or was not a 'realigning' election is rather silly. Since the turn of the last century, there have been 11 cases in which the presidency changed parties: 1912 (Wilson), 1920 (Harding), 1932 (Roosevelt), 1952 (Eisenhower), 1960 (Kennedy), 1968 (Nixon), 1976 (Carter), 1980 (Reagan), 1992 (Clinton), 2000 (Bush), and 2008 (Obama). In 9 of the 11 cases, the party winning the presidency had also made substantial gains in the Congress as compared

Quoting cmonsour: I disagree with David Frum too strongly in temperament and basic sympathies to find his arguments convincing. But I enjoyed this conversation. I remember Frum's Bloggingheads episode with Mark Schmitt, which should have been excellent but which was a total waste of time, mainly because Frum was condescending and apparently uninterested in real dialog. (He did later post some more reasonable thoughts, though still not ones I agreed with.)

I wonder what Frum would be like if he were less of (as he characterizes himself) a "party man." At any rate, he represents the sane wing of the Republican party at this point. I hope he manages to help turn his party around -- though I hope it doesn't happen for a while, because I hope the reinvigorated center-left will get a nice, long opportunity to try its hand at steering the ship of state. It's certainly possible that they (we) could screw things up (or fail to unscrew them). But if they manage not to, things might just get really good again.

I respect David Frum. I'm a liberal, but I try to be reasonable and read The National Review and now that I've read that he is leaving I don't

Quoting nikkibong: Um. Wow. Behold Brink Lindsey, "sensible" conservative, labeling the Civil Rights Movement and Feminism "crazy radical excesses."

http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/159...5:28&out=15:40

The kind of right-wing social history provided in this diavlog is fascinating, if a little bit scary at times.

I respect Brink and I am 99.999999% certain that he is and always has been an equal supporter of equal rights for ethnic minorities and women. He is a libertarian from the Cato Institute after all. He clearly stated that he supported Reagan because he felt that the economic issues were the most important issue. From a civil rights or woman's rights perspective, that is the best approach. Minorities and women suffer more in bad economic times, so if a reasonably person in the 80's who did their homework concluded that Reaganism was going to get the economy on track, we shouldn't mock such a reasonable position. I think when he used that label to talk about the Civil Rights and Feminist movements, he meant the radical fringe elements. Certainly the Panthers and Redstockings could have been more diplomatic in presenting their legitimate grievances before the American people. Had they been more diplomatic, the "silent majority" who were New