Quoting badhatharry: I never got the message that the left was critical of Micheal Moore. I thought he was a rock star.

I haven't listened to all the diavlog yet, so I don't know just what you're referring to. Taking your statement on its own, I would say that's the problem with thinking of 'the left' (or 'the right') as a monolithic entity that can only have one opinion. Yes, Moore is rock star for much of the left. And yes, from his first film there have been a few leftists willing to call BS on his BS.

How brave of Yglesias to talk Journolist with a Journolist-approved conservative

People live in their own little bubbles, and are really surprised to find out what's going on out in the rest of the world.

Comedy gold if you consider Journolist

I never got the message that the left was critical of Micheal Moore. I thought he was a rock star.

Just because Michael Moore sat in Jimmy Carter's box a the 2004 Dem National Convention and absorbed the adulation of the crowd as if he was the pope is no reason to assume they like him. And I can't believe Obama wouldn't like him if he reads enough of Moore's views on free enterprise: "F**k all these small businesses - f**k 'em all! Bring in the chains. The small businesspeople are the rednecks that run the town and suppress the people. F**k 'em all. That's how I feel." It's more like Cindy Sheehan (or Shirley Sherrod even) mebbe, a useful idiot when needed to push the meme, a marginalized, never really influential person once the actions and quotes are examined.

What happened to part two of Ross and the other guy?

Quoting Flaw: What happened to part two of Ross and the other guy?

Happened on the 15th.

Michael Moore sat next to Jimmy Carter at the Democratic National Convention in 2004. Andrew Breitbart is not going to be sitting next to George Bush in the 2012 Republican National Convention.

Quoting freedomforall: Michael Moore sat next to Jimmy Carter at the Democratic National Convention in 2004. Andrew Breitbart is not going to be sitting next to George Bush in the 2012 Republican National Convention.

yeah, cuz bush won't be invited.

Yeah thanks for the Bush swipe. How courageous of you. You totally missed my point. The DEMOCRAT Party gave Michael Moore credence by sitting him next to an ex-President.

They present these changes as so self evidently necessary that it would take a person of enormous ignorance to question these goals. I notice this kind of attitude when I watch MSNBC or listen to someone like Randy Rhodes or Pete Dominick.

Yep, I can't stand progressive bigotry either.

Quoting freedomforall: Yeah thanks for the Bush swipe. How courageous of you. You totally missed my point. The DEMOCRAT Party gave Michael Moore credence by sitting him next to an ex-President.

He didn't miss your point, he ridiculed it.

Quoting AemJeff: He didn't miss your point, he ridiculed it.

Thanks, Jeff. I was tempted to respond to freedomforall's stunning obtuseness . . . but then I remembered the "stupid pointless flamewar" thread and decided against it.

Quoting freedomforall: Yeah thanks for the Bush swipe. How courageous of you. You totally missed my point. The DEMOCRAT Party gave Michael Moore credence by sitting him next to an ex-President.

To be fair (and truthful), it wasn't "The DEMOCRAT Party!!!1!" that gave Michael Moore that seat. It was Jimmy Carter himself. Carter made a spur of the moment decision to invite Moore to sit with him when he met him at the convention.

You call that responding to my point about giving credence to Michael Moore? I guess I had a fair point since he's refusing to respond to it.

Quoting nikkibong: Thanks, Jeff.

I was tempted to respond to freedomforall's stunning obtuseness . . . but then I remembered the "stupid pointless flamewar" thread and decided against it.

y/w: Flaming bans are no reason to ignore or abide a humorless lack of self-awareness.

Can you cite where you got this bit of info from?

Quoting freedomforall: Can you cite where you got this bit of info from?

So you believe there's a need to document the idea that Jimmy Carter makes his own decisions without a requirement to check with the DEMOCRAT party (sic)?

Yes. These conventions are produced to the "t." Seating arrangements are not happenstance.

Quoting harkin: Moore's views on free enterprise:

"F**k all these small businesses - f**k 'em all! Bring in the chains. The small businesspeople are the rednecks that run the town and suppress the people. F**k 'em all. That's how I feel."

Here's the source for that probably-manufactured quote: http://web.archive.org/web/200203222...312top02.shtml Looks at least as credible as Fox News, Andrew Breitbart, and wingnut loon talk radio.

Quoting freedomforall: Yes. These conventions are produced to the "t." Seating arrangements are not happenstance.

Now you have a claim to document.

Quoting freedomforall: Can you cite where you got this bit of info from?

It was stated on the air by broadcasters -- I don't recall what network I was watching -- during the convention when Moore appeared in Carter's box. On stage events are certainly planned -- to an extent. But it's obviously not true that the event was planned to such an extent that everyone who was ever present in anyone's box at any time during the four day event was planned to be there in advance by "The DEMOCRAT Party!!!1!" Do you seriously think that anyone at the convention would tell Carter he could not invite Moore to join him in his private box?

Uninvited Guest: Michael Moore Takes Boston By Storm

On the opening night of the Democratic National Convention, just before Bill and Hillary Clinton took the stage, a massive crowd of cameras and paparazzi burst into the FleetCenter. In the middle of the crowd was filmmaker Michael Moore. He was not an official guest of the Democrats--in fact he was directly not invited to the convention. Some observers say that's because his blunt and spontaneous style would be too risky for a convention that is more scripted than most Shakespeare plays. Furthermore, Moore has said in recent days that he has not endorsed John Kerry, but rather the movement to remove George Bush from power. Moore made it into a skybox at the FleetCenter after an invitation from the family of former president Jimmy Carter. During Carter's convention speech, Michael sat two seats down from Rosalyn Carter inside the skybox.

...

(Source)

[A]t the Democratic national convention, Jimmy Carter invited Moore to sit with him in the presidential box.

(Source) freedomforall: At this point you might want to reflect on how it is you ended up making your false claim. I have

Quoting badhatharry: I never got the message that the left was critical of Micheal Moore. I thought he was a rock star.

First, I haven't listened to the diavlog yet. Excited about it, though, as I usually like Matt and Ross pairings. Second, don't know about "the left," but among liberals and Dems more generally, lots of people dislike him or find him an easily ignorable buffoon. I live in one of the many hearts of blue America, and that's basically the case here among the people I know (and many of these are the same people who can't imagine how people could disagree with the liberal or Dem side on any number of issues).

Well this is why I asked to make sure he was seated there by the Democrat Convention. It should still be an embarrassment that an ex-Pres would invite Michael Moore to the presidential box.

Quoting freedomforall: Well this is why I asked to make sure he was seated there by the Democrat Convention. It should still be an embarrassment that an ex-Pres would invite Michael Moore to the presidential box.

That will teach you not to let Twinswords hijack a point.

Oh, I really should listen before commenting, but I see the question is about Moore vs. Breitbart? I actually wouldn't mind the rightwing loving Breitbart if there was some agreement that he's basically the kind of figure Moore is -- a muckraker, a partisan buffoon who will say whatever to make his point in a more dramatic way. I still wouldn't like him, for the same reason I don't like Moore and don't find his type of dialogue constructive, but I'd understand why others did. However, the Breitbart support seems to me to be based on this idea that he's basically just another hard journalist with a particular partisan slant and in essence no different than, say, Slate (which comes to mind because David Plotz defended Breitbart on basically the "he's a figure like Moore" idea I suggested above).

Matthew Yglesias....water boy.

Douthat was so very sensible here. A good pairing.

Something irrelevant: I'm not sure of the context, Matt is objecting to some organization that is leaking some email in a very edited and sometime false manner instead of just dumping the whole data out there and let others decide. However, if someone is wronged by the falsehoods or selective leaks, couldn't this person just post the original relevant emails? In our Googlian Era that's all one has to do to correct the record.

Quoting look: Douthat was so very sensible here. A good pairing.

Agreed. I thought they had a good discussion, especially on Breibart and JournoList.

Agreed. Ross and MY were both great in this one. The interesting question that came to my mind (again) while watching this is: how does a conservative-leaning reporter make their way in the world when their "side" has spent 30 years demonizing their chosen profession? It seems that the more serious a conservative approaches journalism, as far as being willing to tell the facts and even (gasp) criticize Conservative dogma, they immediately get pushed to the margins and have to field never-ending accusations of not being a Real Conservative!!1! The Right has spent so much time spreading the meme that journalism is not a noble profession, that I don't think it's any coincidence that the majority of beat reporters are not conservative. Given the power of Fox News and the huge popularity of the most polarizing media personalities (Rush, Beck, Hannity, Malkin, Coulter), I don't see how this is going to change anytime soon. Anyone like Conor Friedersdorf or David Frum who dares to stick up for the principles of journalism inevitabley will be applauded by the Left and thus seal their fates as potential traitors to the Cause.

Quoting uncle ebeneezer: Agreed. Ross and MY were both great in this one. The interesting question that came to my mind (again) while watching this is: how does a conservative-leaning reporter make their way in the world when their "side" has spent 30 years demonizing their chosen profession? It seems that the more serious a conservative approaches journalism, as far as being willing to tell the facts and even (gasp) criticize Conservative dogma, they immediately get pushed to the margins and have to field never-ending accusations of not being a Real Conservative!!1! The Right has spent so much time spreading the meme that journalism is not a noble profession, that I don't think it's any coincidence that the majority of beat reporters are not conservative. Given the power of Fox News and the huge popularity of the most polarizing media personalities (Rush, Beck, Hannity, Malkin, Coulter), I don't see how this is going to change anytime soon. Anyone like Conor Friedersdorf or David Frum who dares to stick up for the principles of journalism inevitabley will be applauded by the Left and thus seal their fates as potential traitors to the Cause.

I think you have made

What's up with those people in Mr. Yglesias' office speaking in the background? Whose downfall are they plotting next?

Quoting freedomforall: Well this is why I asked to make sure he was seated there by the Democrat Convention. It should still be an embarrassment that an ex-Pres would invite Michael Moore to the presidential box.

You should have the decency to acknowledge Twin's having dug up references for you. At your request, mind you.

Quoting rfrobison: What's up with those people in Mr. Yglesias' office speaking in the background? Whose downfall are they plotting next?

Correction: you left out the word "vast" from your thread title.

Quoting Don Zeko: I wish. Apparently a 2.00 ghz dual core processor is insufficient to run the game, or at least it's iffy enough that I don't want to risk paying the $50 and installing it only to discover that the game doesn't run. Rest assured, though. Steam tells me that several of my friends are playing Starcraft 2 as I type. [...]

People who are wondering about all the excitement may find this entry-level article of some interest: "‘Easy, Tychus, This Ain’t Science Fiction’." Officially, the Gray Lady herself calls this a review. Gives you some hint of how far along the state of the art has come.